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[297a]

Hippias
Yes, it is.

Socrates
But surely, Hippias, the cause and that of which the cause is the cause are different; for the cause could not well be the cause of the cause. But look at it in this way was not the cause seen to be creating?

Hippias
Yes, certainly.

Socrates
By that which creates, then, only that is created which comes into being, but not that which creates.1 Is not that true?

Hippias
That is true.

Socrates
The cause, then, is not the cause of the cause, but of that which comes into being through it. [297b]

Hippias
Certainly.

Socrates
If, then, the beautiful is the cause of good, the good would come into being through the beautiful; and this is why we are eager for wisdom and all the other beautiful things, because their offspring, the good, is worthy of eagerness, and, from what we are finding, it looks as if the beautiful were a sort of father of the good.

Hippias
Certainly for what you say is well said, Socrates.

Socrates
Then is this well said, too, that the father is not the son, and the son not father? [297c]

Hippias
To be sure it is well said.

Socrates
And neither is the cause that which comes into being, nor is that which comes into being the cause.

Hippias
True.

Socrates
By Zeus, my good friend, then neither is the beautiful good, nor the good beautiful; or does it seem to you possible, after what has been said?

Hippias
No, by Zeus, it does not appear so to me.

Socrates
Does it please us, and should we be willing to say that the beautiful is not good, and the good not beautiful?

Hippias
No, by Zeus, it does not please me at all.

Socrates
Right, by Zeus, Hippias! [297d] And it pleases me least of all the things we have said.

Hippias
Yes, that is likely.

Socrates
Then there is a good chance that the statement that the beneficial and the useful and the powerful to create something good are beautiful, is not, as it appeared to be, the most beautiful of of statements, but, if that be possible, is even more ridiculous than those first ones in which we thought the maiden was the beautiful, and each of the various other things we spoke of before.

Hippias
That is likely.

Socrates
And Hippias, I no longer know where to turn; I am at a loss; but have you anything to say? [297e]

Hippias
Not at the moment, but, as I said just now, I am sure I shall find it after meditation.

Socrates
But it seems to me that I am so eager to know that I cannot wait for you while you delay; for I believe I have just now found a way out. Just see; how would it help us towards our goal if we were to say that that is beautiful which makes us feel joy; I do not mean all pleasures, but that which makes us feel joy through hearing and sight?


1 i.e. the creative force creates the thing created, not the creative force.

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